Older male with young female friend?

Linus

Active member
"Everyday Philosophy: Can you build an intellectual friendship with someone you’re attracted to?
Does Platonic love actually exist?

Two people sitting across from each other at a table in a diner, engaged in conversation. The table has plates of food and drinks. The background shows other diners in a black and white setting.


Alamy / Big Think

Key Takeaways

  • Welcome to Everyday Philosophy, the column where I use insights from the history of philosophy to help you navigate the daily dilemmas of modern life.
  • This week, we explore the age-old question raised in When Harry Met Sally: When it comes to a friendship with someone good-looking, does attraction necessarily hinder the friendship?
  • To answer that, we’ll look at the philosophies of Diotima, Plato, and Christian Monasticism.

Jonny Thomson



In my mid-70s, I met a woman 20 years younger who expressed an intellectual interest in me. She is my daughter’s age. My age dictates a waning interest in sex, but I enjoy being around this young woman; we dinner date and take weekend trips together. She stimulates me intellectually. I dabble with writing, and some of our discussions spark creative ideas. My dilemma is: should I leave the young thing alone?
– Mike, US
I think this is a fascinating question, not only for the question itself but for the questions that lie beneath. At first glance, this might not be seen as a problem at all. This is a friendship between two people—of different ages and stages—but a friendship nonetheless. And it would take a peculiarly reclusive philosopher to deny the merit of good friendships.

But there’s something in the tone and wording of this that does strike me as a dilemma. The first is the frequent mention of age: “my daughter’s age” and “leave the young thing alone.” But the second is the introduction of sex. Obviously, the two are connected—it’s not uncommon for older men to find younger women attractive—but it seems as if the question here is one made famous by When Harry Met Sally. In the movie, Harry hypothesized that “no man can be friends with a woman that he finds attractive. He always wants to have sex with her.” Or, phrased another way, I wonder whether the sex question is getting in the way of the friendship.

This is not to besmirch Mike at all. I will take his word that he has a “waning interest” in sex. But I will treat this question with the background assumption that Mike and society believe sex is a relevant factor here. And so, to answer Mike, I shall ask: Is it ever possible to have an intellectual relationship with someone who you find to be, even somewhat, sexually attractive?


To answer that, we shall call upon the scholarch of intellectual friendships, Diotima, to argue that not only is it possible for Mike to carry on, but it’s praiseworthy. To counter that, we’ll call upon some of the virginal or chaste in the history of ideas: Plato and Christian Monasticism.

Diotima: See the truth through the person

We don’t entirely know if Diotima existed. She is only ever mentioned in Plato’s dialogues, but that doesn’t necessarily mean she was a fabrication—almost all of Plato’s characters represented real people. But if she did exist, it means she’s one of the first recorded female philosophers (while also being a priestess). Diotima is said to have taught Socrates “the philosophy of love,” and her account goes on to largely define Plato’s.



Diotima believed that love progresses in stages. At first, we love beautiful things—like an attractive body or a witty joke. We love a particular person. In the case of Mike, it might be that he was initially attracted to “the young thing” for her energy and spark. But then, according to Diotima, something strange happens. True love, for Diotima, generalizes. It sees the forms and archetypes from the particulars.

So, we start to love the kindness, the wittiness, the generosity, the loyalty, or the supportiveness rather than any individual moment of those. Most importantly, we see the abstraction of goodness, truth, and beauty. Through the interactions with this person, we see the forms of the world. What starts as a physical thing between two humans—between Mike and this lady—ends up as a relationship between two minds and souls. The bodies are irrelevant.

All that matters is the “intellectual interest” and creative spark.

The Monkish life: Avoid the pull of eros.

The problem, though, is that many find it hard to reach this kind of purity. It might even be impossible. We might all have the best intentions in the world to engage in entirely intellectual friendships, but our bodies will often infuriatingly insist on making themselves heard. We find people attractive. We think about sex. We’re distracted by the many sensual delights of the lascivious world. For Plato, we are too often pulled by the iron cords of our desires, like lust, and they pull us off course.


If we agree with the idea that sexual appetites will distract our rational faculties—or our loins will mislead our train of thought—then what are we to do if we’re serious about the contemplative life? Well, chastity. In many religious traditions, those who are serious about their religion become monks. And monks have a long history of avoiding interaction with the opposite sex. In the Christian tradition, the Rule of Saint Benedict laid down the first formal orders for the first monasteries. And one of them was chastity. No sex. No thoughts about sex. Surround yourself entirely with members of the same sex—nuns in nunneries and monks in monasteries.

The reasoning for this was that it’s only when we escape the carnal clutches of the libido that we can contemplate God and reflect. Our higher faculties cannot work while our lower ones are activating. We cannot properly use our heads if we’re pumped full of erotic hormones.

So, Mike, many of the monks in the world would look at you with cynical eyes. How true is your “waning interest in sex”? Is this truly an intellectual relationship, contemplating the higher things in life? Or are you, perhaps, distracted more than you would like to admit?

Get joy where you can

In the end, I think Mike’s dilemma is rooted in the tension between his desire for intellectual companionship and the lingering societal and personal expectations about age, sex, and relationships. The truth is, relationships can be multifaceted. While Diotima might argue that true love transcends the physical, Plato and St. Benedict would ask you to reflect on how possible this actually is.

Life rarely fits neatly into philosophical categories. Mike is enjoying this woman’s company. It’s sparking creativity, and from what he says, they seem to be enriching each other’s lives intellectually and companionably. As long as their relationship remains respectful and consensual, there’s nothing inherently wrong with finding someone intellectually stimulating while acknowledging that there might be some degree of attraction.

Ultimately, if you find joy in this relationship and no one is harmed in its continuance, then there’s no reason to leave this “young thing” alone. It’s okay to enjoy someone else’s company—even if it exists in the sometimes murky, but entirely human, space where intellect and attraction meet."



What would you say to Mike?
 

Aussie Skip

New member
It doesn't really work in the long term, it may work for a few months but it will crash because of other pressing needs. The "intellectual" friendship will end soon enough with one, or both, saying: "It was nice talking to you"

The key word is "attraction" - attracted to the opposite sex to only exchange notes?, or to follow the natural instincts of mating? Those natural instincts must be suppressed by both, male and female, in a so-called intellectual friendship for it to work. One will crack eventually, and if the other doesn't respond, the natural urge will be fulfilled by using a third party, conceivably but not necessarily ending the mutual friendship. However, if the female becomes pregnant to the third party, then that could very well be the end of the intellectual friendship.

So putting it bluntly, an "intellectual" friendship must include physical intimacy, on occasions. But the issue is very complex and should be treated on a case by case basis just as the older man in the OP met a younger woman 20 years his junior. This is not uncommon, and usually leads to physical intimacy, quite normal, and the friendship (or relationship) will last while ever the attraction lasts, that was there in the beginning. It's the attraction that must last, if it wanes, so will everything else in the "friendship" wane.
 

mothra

Moderator
Staff member
The idea that women and men can't be friends is a vestige of a long ago time in which gender roles were clearly defined and men and women tended not to come into too much contact with each other beyond courting years.

It's a weird old man hang up.

For decades now, women and men have been sharing social and professional spaces and managing perfectly well. Many of my friends are men and if i or they ever felt any attraction, it was fleeting and not worth worrying about.

Honestly, i think the maturity of the general relationships between men and women is a testament to how seriously fucked up the defined gender roles of the past were.
 

Aussie Skip

New member
If by the "past" you mean the 20th century, when men knew their role as the bread winner, and woman knew their role as the home maker, then by all accounts that arrangement work fairly well, and their was an overall stability in the wider community which promoted social "peace". The Ten Commandments were more in vogue and children were more inclined to learn from an early age right from wrong.

A man and a woman may have got jealous if they found out their partners were talking to, or associating with, other members of the opposite sex in a casual fashion ... but jealousy still exists today, however today's retribution is far worse than just the chiding of yesteryear, violence and murder have been added to the equation, in numbers we've never seen before.

I think it's essential for modern day participants in private platonic and/or intellectual relationships, to be single, for the relationship to endure for any length of time. But there's too many specifics to discuss the topic in general terms. Even the accepted value of courting is a platonic intellectual "friendship", until it's not. It will either transform into a marriage type relationship, or a parting of the ways. Most of the time, we like to move on, to something that will be more stimulating, gratifying, or fulfilling. Just sitting around talking to a member of the opposite sex has it's inevitable limits. The attraction side of a platonic "friendship" can't possibly be genuine when attraction demands engaging in all the natural aspects of attraction - far more than just talking.
 

mothra

Moderator
Staff member
Sure, you can summarise the past like that ... if you're an idiot. To the rest of us, it was time in which men had all the opportunities, fulfillment, reward and autonomy while women were indentured servants.

Good times.

And oooh, they're like, totally murdering wachother for talking within the sexes these days! Can you believe it?

No. I don;t. Seriously, What the actual fuck? Women and men get along better together these days that ever before. And, as gender roles continue to crumble into dust, people seem to be closer and more in tune with each other than ever before.

Sure there are outliers ... and crusty old curmudgeons like you ... but i don't see it relected in the world around me at all.

I've two kids; one in her 20s and one late teen son. Both have friends of the opposite sex and manage just fine.

I have friends of the opposite sex and manage just fine. But i already told you that. You ignored it.

I think the the thing is you don't respect women as individuals. You've no idea how to relate to women on a one on one basis. You've got you're indentured servant and you are not supposed to look any further.

Men who don't treat women like people, Jesus. The internet gave them a resurrection. Goddamn it.
 

mothra

Moderator
Staff member
Swearing and personal attacks don't make for a very good intellectual friendship

But you've just got through telling me, twice, that we can't be friends anyway, seeing as i'm a lowly woman.

Was i still expected to flatter you? Appeal to your delicate ego?
 

mothra

Moderator
Staff member
You're not my type.

Furthermore, i see nothing yet that is redeeming in you worthy of friendship. You're very much coming across as a horrible old bigot.

Was this your intention?
 
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